Hi,

I want to bring some (ideas?) in relation to damn+activitypub[1]. Qeef 
have two arguments against it :-)

- Real-time notifications are unhealthy
- Mapping usually needs long-term effort

I know damn have RSS support ( one way sync ), "but" :-) ... Btw i don't 
know if this is some crazy idea ( activitypub support )

- If DAMN join "federation" could bring more attention? Maybe... ( 
https://fediverse.party/ | https://fediverse.info/ | 
https://www.fediverse.to/ )
- I see some advantage when you have "two way sync"... This create 
community around the platform ( bots, retoot, stats, notifications )
- You can monitor with RSS but you cant give feedback ( like have your 
federate account to interact with other people working in your area )
- Best way to advertise the working areas? ( Some fediverse spam could 
help here... With RSS is possible, with some bridge and glue i think )
- Reminders!! Yes, i need a lot of them xD ... ( The Area 2443 of DAMN 
is going to close for inactivity... Thanks Mastodon! )
- Sometimes real-time notifications are good :-) ... ( Remote 
Notathon/Mapathon with people working directly on area... Like auto 
update notes area recently added )

I'm federation advocate, certainly i don't know if this would change the 
game with damn... But i want to give some ideas.

[1] https://mastodon.social/@risturiz/110052807134572113

First of all, thank you for the ideas. These are things that keep me
motivated.

Also, please note, that requests from mappers and communities have the
highest priority, but it is important to understand what they _really_
need.

I will quickly summarize my understanding of the Fediverse, write note
about the relation to the damn project, and discuss the proposed ideas.

Fediverse, in my (short) opinion, is how content can be shared between
people using different servers. Like email.

There are two types of content created by using the damn project: areas
and commits, both being temporal; it is not possible to create anything
else (think about the mastodon instance where only 'e' letter is allowed
to be tooted). Content that matters is created by updating the
OpenStreetMap.

The discussion follows.

> - If DAMN join "federation" could bring more attention? Maybe... (
> https://fediverse.party/ | https://fediverse.info/ |
> https://www.fediverse.to/ )

Probably yes, but it is not a priority for the damn project.

> - I see some advantage when you have "two way sync"... This create community
> around the platform ( bots, retoot, stats, notifications )

I am not sure we should be aiming to create a community. The damn
project should primarily serve (different, already existing)
communities, improving the workflows of mappers, reviewers, and (area)
managers.

> - You can monitor with RSS but you cant give feedback ( like have your
> federate account to interact with other people working in your area )

Because the content that matters is created by updating the
OpenStreetMap (OSM), the OSM infrastructure should be used, i.e. OSM
messages and changeset discussions.

> - Best way to advertise the working areas? ( Some fediverse spam could help
> here... With RSS is possible, with some bridge and glue i think )

I believe the areas you care about should be shared within your
community using a communication channel the community preffers.
Advertising areas, managing areas, or work on areas cannot be the
responsibility of the damn project. However, the damn project should
simplify the workflow you use to advertise, manage, or work on areas as
much as possible.

> - Reminders!! Yes, i need a lot of them xD ... ( The Area 2443 of DAMN is
> going to close for inactivity... Thanks Mastodon! )

I agree. That is good idea. I will add "inactive status" to every area's
RSS feed. What is the preffered time of the notification? Day? Week?

I believe there are already solutions for "RSS to ActivityPub/Mastodon"
if that is desired. Maybe it would be even better if such a bot is set
per community, because it would probably be easier to set the bot to
follow certain RSS feeds than to filter the bot's toots.

> - Sometimes real-time notifications are good :-) ... ( Remote
> Notathon/Mapathon with people working directly on area... Like auto update
> notes area recently added )

I totally agree and I do not hesitate when I am not in doubts. For the
example mentioned, the workflow (even potential) is clear. The workflow
for notifications about inactive status of the area is clear, too.

I believe that before we start implementing something, we need such
clear specification of the problem.

> I'm federation advocate, certainly i don't know if this would change the
> game with damn... But i want to give some ideas.

Thank you!

On 21/03/2023 18:25, Jiri Vlasak wrote:
> First of all, thank you for the ideas. These are things that keep me
> motivated.
> 
> Also, please note, that requests from mappers and communities have the
> highest priority, but it is important to understand what they _really_
> need.

      Hi again, i did some tests with RSS... Basically i think we need 
some kind of notifications to monitor ( areas, changes? )... Actually 
RSS work but don't give a lot of info[1][2] ( user, link to area?, 
changeset )

I added 4 RSS url:

- changes
- abandoned
- completion status
- squares to review

> I believe that before we start implementing something, we need such
> clear specification of the problem.

      Actually i use RSS to monitor some areas for Notes/Changesets to 
review[3]... I think maybe some additional info would help to use the 
system for alerts and keep people aware of changes.

P.D. DAMN color palette? https://colorswall.com/palette/103077 xD

[1] https://i.imgur.com/G2pJCdt.png ( Deltachat channel with RSS 
Simplebot )
[2] https://i.imgur.com/K3onhbn.png ( Matrix.org channel with RSS widget 
)
[3] https://i.imgur.com/a5ohelV.png

Thanks!

>      Hi again, i did some tests with RSS... Basically i think we need some
> kind of notifications to monitor ( areas, changes? )... Actually RSS work
> but don't give a lot of info[1][2] ( user, link to area?, changeset )

Thank you for testing. I have checked the RSS feeds with the validator
tool and fixed some settings, which hopefuly fixes the second figure.

I have updated "changed areas" RSS feed to include _changes_ to previous
versions of the area.

It is good idea to add links to RSS feeds of 3rd party tools that
monitor OpenStreetMap (like RSS of changesets for the area). I will do
that. Please, let me know if you have more of favorite tools it is
beneficial to link to.

I guess that link to area is link to manager? It will be solved as soon
as the manager is moved to new codebase for web clients. I will
prioritize this.

I am still not sure about the notification/monitoring problem. RSS feeds
of the damn project are updated every day at 3:33 UTC. It should be
possible to convert RSS feed to wide range of notification systems.

> I added 4 RSS url:
> 
> - changes
> - abandoned
> - completion status
> - squares to review

These are feeds about what happened to the area in the context of the
damn project (please, do not confuse these RSS feeds with the feeds
about changes to the OpenStreetMap).

> > I believe that before we start implementing something, we need such
> > clear specification of the problem.
> 
>      Actually i use RSS to monitor some areas for Notes/Changesets to
> review[3]... I think maybe some additional info would help to use the system
> for alerts and keep people aware of changes.

Do you have something specific on your mind? I am tracking the links of
3rd party tools I would like to somehow add to the damn project [1]. 

[1]: https://todo.sr.ht/~qeef/damn-project/12

> P.D. DAMN color palette? https://colorswall.com/palette/103077 xD

:)

> [1] https://i.imgur.com/G2pJCdt.png ( Deltachat channel with RSS Simplebot )
> [2] https://i.imgur.com/K3onhbn.png ( Matrix.org channel with RSS widget )
> [3] https://i.imgur.com/a5ohelV.png
> 
> Thanks!

On 11/04/2023 18:58, Jiri Vlasak wrote:
>>      Hi again, i did some tests with RSS... Basically i think we need 
>> some
>> kind of notifications to monitor ( areas, changes? )... Actually RSS 
>> work
>> but don't give a lot of info[1][2] ( user, link to area?, changeset )
> 
> Thank you for testing. I have checked the RSS feeds with the validator
> tool and fixed some settings, which hopefuly fixes the second figure.

      Nice, i would report if i see another error :-)

> I have updated "changed areas" RSS feed to include _changes_ to 
> previous
> versions of the area.
> 
> It is good idea to add links to RSS feeds of 3rd party tools that
> monitor OpenStreetMap (like RSS of changesets for the area). I will do
> that. Please, let me know if you have more of favorite tools it is
> beneficial to link to.

      I use that 3 you have on[1]

> I guess that link to area is link to manager? It will be solved as soon
> as the manager is moved to new codebase for web clients. I will
> prioritize this.

      If i understand right ( sorry if my use case is "noob" point of 
view ), you lock the area -> work -> done -> review ( all this should 
have and specific url bbox? ( coordinates )... The RSS could have that 
link? ... But i would wait for your idea and test it :-)

> I am still not sure about the notification/monitoring problem. RSS 
> feeds
> of the damn project are updated every day at 3:33 UTC. It should be
> possible to convert RSS feed to wide range of notification systems.
> 
>> I added 4 RSS url:
>> 
>> - changes
>> - abandoned
>> - completion status
>> - squares to review
> 
> These are feeds about what happened to the area in the context of the
> damn project (please, do not confuse these RSS feeds with the feeds
> about changes to the OpenStreetMap).

      Yes, when i work on the area i can see commits: ( but only on 
panel? )

      4/3/2023, 1:06:18 AM | risturiz: This square is done. (227 done)

      If this could have RSS notifications could be useful ( some teacher 
monitoring students )... So in this case all feeds only update at 
specific time? ( oh, btw any chance to have timezone manager? )

      I see this way, i don't want to monitor all globe for changesets 
but have some info about people working on my damn project area?... 
Actually i don't know what would be the best information for RSS 
notification, maybe user/areamessage/urlbbox ( RSS from QA and Neis lack 
for some formatting, but its fine ); if you additionally integrate this 
workflow would be amazing, i didn't think about it.

[1] https://todo.sr.ht/~qeef/damn-project/12

Thanks!

> > I guess that link to area is link to manager? It will be solved as
> > soon as the manager is moved to new codebase for web clients. I will
> > prioritize this.
> 
> If i understand right ( sorry if my use case is "noob" point of view
> ), you lock the area -> work -> done -> review ( all this should have
> and specific url bbox? ( coordinates )... The RSS could have that
> link? ... But i would wait for your idea and test it :-)

I think I should clarify/recapitulate the approach of the damn project a
little bit.

You specify _area_ to be mapped in the manager [1]. The RSS feeds [2]
track information about the particular area or all areas.

An _area_ is divided into _squares_ when created, and the state of all
(just created) squares is set to "to map". There are well defined
transitions between square's states [3]; in the diagrams, the arrows
depict locking (arrow leaves the oval) and unlocking (arrow enters the
oval) of the particular square.

Now, I will try to answer this:

> you lock the area -> work -> done -> review ( all this should have and
> specific url bbox? ( coordinates )

- You usually lock a square.

- When "locked" state is explicitely stated, the transitions looks like
  "to map" -> "locked" -> "to review" -> "locked" -> "done", where the
  first "locked" is "working on mapping" and the second "locked" is
  "working on review".

- It is possible to retrieve GeoJSON of any area (not just bounding
  box).

- It is possible to retrieve GPX of any square (not just bounding box).

> But i would wait for your idea and test it :-)

The history of the square's states is available [4], but will be
improved during the "mappy" web client rework. For example, I plan to
include links to 3rd party tools to reworked mappy client, to simplify
monitoring changes of area and/or each square.

> The RSS could have that link?

Yes, the plan is to include the link to the "history of the square's
states" of the (reworked) "mappy" web client into the "squares to
review" RSS feeds.

> > I am still not sure about the notification/monitoring problem. RSS feeds
> > of the damn project are updated every day at 3:33 UTC. It should be
> > possible to convert RSS feed to wide range of notification systems.
> > 
> > > I added 4 RSS url:
> > > 
> > > - changes
> > > - abandoned
> > > - completion status
> > > - squares to review
> > 
> > These are feeds about what happened to the area in the context of the
> > damn project (please, do not confuse these RSS feeds with the feeds
> > about changes to the OpenStreetMap).
> 
>      Yes, when i work on the area i can see commits: ( but only on panel? )
> 
>      4/3/2023, 1:06:18 AM | risturiz: This square is done. (227 done)

"Old" web clients [5], [6] has link to "statistics" for each area. It is
possible to see the history of the square (see the bottom of
"statistics" page), but it is rough and not well accessible.

It is not possible to see the "statistics" page in the panel web client.

> If this could have RSS notifications could be useful ( some teacher
> monitoring students )...

This is the reason for "squares to review" RSS feed, for example of area
7112 [7].

Or you mean to have RSS feed (with history of the states) for each
square? I doubt it is useful -- when you monitor students, you probably
want to know which "squares [are ready] to review".

However, "squares done" RSS feed could be probably useful for the second
round of review?

> So in this case all feeds only update at specific time?

Yes. Locking square (or any other update to the database) does not
trigger any action. All the upkeep is triggered periodically.

> ( oh, btw any chance to have timezone manager? )

Hmm, I am not sure how to do that in RSS feeds. Every date/time in the
damn server is UTC. Every date/time in any web client is (or will be
after rework) in local time. However, I am not sure how to say "display
this time in local time" to RSS reader, if it is even possible.

(The reason for this approach is the date/time is generated
automatically in the database by update action; it is not specified by a
user.)

> I see this way, i don't want to monitor all globe for changesets but
> have some info about people working on my damn project area?...

There is currently some information about mappers in "statistics" page
of "old" clients. See for example "all creators", "all mappers", or
"local mappers" in the bottom of the "statistics" page.

This information will be more accessible in the reworked version of
mappy web client.

> Actually i don't know what would be the best information for RSS
> notification, maybe user/areamessage/urlbbox ( RSS from QA and Neis
> lack for some formatting, but its fine ); if you additionally
> integrate this workflow would be amazing, i didn't think about it.

It depends on the use-case, I believe:

- If you care about the overall quality, you probably subscribe to "new
  areas of the damn-project.org".

- If you care about the area, you probably subscribe to "changes" and
  "abandoned" of particular area (items of these RSS feeds will be
  supplemented with the link to particular area in the (reworked)
  manager web client).

- If you are reviever, you may subscribe to "squares to review" of
  particular area (items of "squares to review" RSS feeds will be
  supplemented with the link to the square in reworked mappy client when
  ready).

BTW, RSS feeds from QA [2] are formatted with HTML and that should be
possible by the specification. I am willing to improve the format.

[1]: https://manager.damn-project.org/
[2]: https://qa.damn-project.org/rss/
[3]: https://damn-project.org/#squares-state-transitions
[4]: https://mappy.damn-project.org/?stats=2443&of=277
[5]: https://client.damn-project.org/
[6]: https://mappy.damn-project.org/
[7]: https://qa.damn-project.org/rss/area-7112-squares-to-review.xml