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Re: Fork proposal

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> I don't know if many people will be reading this but I'll ask anyway.

That is one of the reasons to migrate somewhere like Github/Gitlab/Codeberg

I am even unsure if that message will appear in the thread (attempt #8)

> What would be the name of the fork?
> Drew is OK if the original project name is preserved.

Goo name, why change it

> Where would source code, issue tracking would be hosted?

Somewhere like Github/Gitlab/Codeberg?
In a place where project could be found by more than a few longbeards?)

> What will happen to aerc-mail.org and #aerc, #aerc-dev on Libera?

Who cares about IRC channels nowadays?

> I will wait a few weeks for replies before doing anything.

I feel that I am late and good old XIX century way to use git is kept anyway :D

Re: Fork proposal

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On Mon Nov 15, 2021 at 11:34 PM CET, Mailru Pile wrote:
> > I don't know if many people will be reading this but I'll ask anyway.
> That is one of the reasons to migrate somewhere like
> Github/Gitlab/Codeberg

The risk of his message not reaching many people is not because we are in a mailling list, but
because aerc had not had much activity in a while.

> Somewhere like Github/Gitlab/Codeberg?
> In a place where project could be found by more than a few longbeards?)

If you don't like the people here I don't think anybody is going to force you to stay.


> > What will happen to aerc-mail.org and #aerc, #aerc-dev on Libera?
> Who cares about IRC channels nowadays?

The longbeards that like linking protocols that have proven themselves robust over time might care.

Re: Fork proposal

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> > What will happen to aerc-mail.org and #aerc, #aerc-dev on Libera?
>
> Who cares about IRC channels nowadays?

The people who want a federated, open source/open standard, non-commerically
motivated, efficient, secure chat protocol.

Kalyan

Re: Fork proposal

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>If you don't like the people here I don't think anybody is going to force you to stay.

I didn't mean to be rude, in case it looked that way.
I will not leave so fast after I spent a few hours figuring out how to set up neomutt and use it with mailing lists.
I am feeling like I am got in some long-forgotten druid circle in naphthalene smelling mantle of apprenticehood.
And now I am wondering, why you are using mailing lists with the git-over-email approach, maybe it is convenient or maybe you have some other reasons.

>The risk of his message not reaching many people is not because we are in a mailling list, but
>because aerc had not had much activity in a while.

Well, yes, but why aerc had not much activity in the first place?
Maybe, at least partly, because of its not-friendly-to-common-programmer infrastructure?

---

WBW, Kabakov B

Re: Fork proposal

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On Tue Nov 16, 2021 at 1:53 AM CET,  wrote:
> I will not leave so fast after I spent a few hours figuring out how to
> set up neomutt and use it with mailing lists.
> I am feeling like I am got in some long-forgotten druid circle in
> naphthalene smelling mantle of apprenticehood.
> And now I am wondering, why you are using mailing lists with the
> git-over-email approach, maybe it is convenient or maybe you have some
> other reasons.

Different people here have different reasons, some have really low end hadware and/or internet
connection and working with sourcehut through email is a much more pleasant or maybe even the only
tollerable experience. Others might prefere the sourcehut way because it is not plagued by anti
features. I prefer it for a combination of these things, I loath having to open a browser to 
contrinbute or follow the discussions surrounding the project.
And a last point that is really important for me, sourcehut is actively working with the FOSS
ecosystem, they aren't just exploiting it for their own benefit.


> Well, yes, but why aerc had not much activity in the first place?
> Maybe, at least partly, because of its not-friendly-to-common-programmer
> infrastructure?

I'd say it's unfamiliar, not unfriendly. Even aerc's README contain a good tutorial to get you
started with git-send-email[1].
What makes you think that the github pull request workflow is more deveopper friendly?
You had to learn that at some point too, and I am sure you didn't just know how to do it right away.

There is an argument to be made for github giving visibilty to a project (and this is specific to
github by the way, neither gitlab nor codeberg would help in that regard), but there is also a big
chance that the users who would randomly stumble across aerc like that would not want to use a
termianl email client anyway. Especially one designed to work be well suited to this email style
workflow.

In the end, if you really prefer the github workflow you can setup a fork there. After all that's
your right granted to you by the license, but as Drew said, it is pretty much antithetical to aerc's
core principal.

1: https://git-send-email.io/

PS: Sorry if this is full of typos, it's getting quite late around these parts.

Re: Fork proposal

Ondřej Synáček
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On Mon Nov 15, 2021 at 11:34 PM CET, Mailru Pile wrote:
> That is one of the reasons to migrate somewhere like
> Github/Gitlab/Codeberg
>

I think I understand your point a little bit. I would say lot of
developers are very familiar with Github and adjacent tools and
workflows.
So I assume that is where your point of view is coming from but like
others have written already, it wouldn't necessarily help with
discoverability of the project.

I think using GH would help with onboarding new contributors and
people filing issues.

HOWEVER, people who prefer using aerc are kind of people who like
git over email. If I'm not mistaken it was one of the reasons why it was
created in the first place. The same people (whatever you want
to call this group) also prefer IRC and non-centralized systems.

I'm not advocating for move to GH or any platform, I really like
sourcehut as well, not everything has to be at one place online, just
wanted to expand on points Mailru wrote about that's all.

Re: Fork proposal

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+1 longbeard for sr.ht!


On Tue Nov 16, 2021 at 8:27 AM CET, Ondřej Synáček wrote:
> On Mon Nov 15, 2021 at 11:34 PM CET, Mailru Pile wrote:
> > That is one of the reasons to migrate somewhere like
> > Github/Gitlab/Codeberg
> >
>
> I think I understand your point a little bit. I would say lot of
> developers are very familiar with Github and adjacent tools and
> workflows.
> So I assume that is where your point of view is coming from but like
> others have written already, it wouldn't necessarily help with
> discoverability of the project.
>
> I think using GH would help with onboarding new contributors and
> people filing issues.
>
> HOWEVER, people who prefer using aerc are kind of people who like
> git over email. If I'm not mistaken it was one of the reasons why it was
> created in the first place. The same people (whatever you want
> to call this group) also prefer IRC and non-centralized systems.
>
> I'm not advocating for move to GH or any platform, I really like
> sourcehut as well, not everything has to be at one place online, just
> wanted to expand on points Mailru wrote about that's all.

Re: Fork proposal

Nilesh Patra
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On 16 November 2021 6:12:22 am IST, Kalyan Sriram <kalyan@coderkalyan.com> wrote:
>> > What will happen to aerc-mail.org and #aerc, #aerc-dev on Libera?
>>
>> Who cares about IRC channels nowadays?
>
>The people who want a federated, open source/open standard, non-commerically
>motivated, efficient, secure chat protocol.

I can agree to that. But just a thought though, we could think about a matrix room, or an XMPP one. Both of them have the same characteristics you mentioned above, with added features.

Nilesh

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Re: Fork proposal

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> I can agree to that. But just a thought though, we could think
> about a matrix room, or an XMPP one. Both of them have the same
> characteristics you mentioned above, with added features.

Many IRC networks are bridged to Matrix, including Libera.  In fact,
that's how I join IRC channels nowadays.  XMPP can also be bridged
to either protocol.

Re: Fork proposal

Nilesh Patra
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On 16 November 2021 2:10:28 pm IST, "Nguyễn Gia Phong" <mcsinyx@disroot.org> wrote:
>> I can agree to that. But just a thought though, we could think
>> about a matrix room, or an XMPP one. Both of them have the same
>> characteristics you mentioned above, with added features.
>
>Many IRC networks are bridged to Matrix, including Libera.

Right. I was just stating an alternative.
However, features of matrix (photos, media, edit, quote replies etc) don't usually render very well on IRC.

>In fact,
>that's how I join IRC channels nowadays.

Same here.

> XMPP can also be bridged
>to either protocol.

Yes, but the bridge is not very reliable. Atleast with matrix->xmpp bridge in current state, the moment you go offline, you stop getting messages, so that's there.

Nilesh
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Re: Fork proposal

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Kalyan Sriram <kalyan@coderkalyan.com> wrote:
>The people who want a federated, open source/open standard,
> non-commerically motivated, efficient, secure chat protocol.

Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
>source hut (sr.ht) is one of the great wonders of this modern
>too-centralized era and we should be moving things _to_ it not _from_ it.

Are you aware that this mail list is run using AWS Simple Email Service?
And may I ask you, what hardware/OS are you using, could it be Macbook by some chance?

---

Nicolai Dagestad <nicolai@dagestad.fr> wrote:
>Different people here have different reasons, some have really low end hadware and/or internet
>connection and working with sourcehut through email is a much more pleasant or maybe even the only
>tollerable experience.

It is a very odd explanation. Even my 12-year-old laptop can do this.
Any potato-PC from the previous 20 years can do it, and there is no
sense to discuss older than that things -- they now are more expensive
because of antiquity.

>What makes you think that the github pull request workflow is more deveopper friendly?

Well, maybe it is not more friendly but it is de-facto standard and
majority of developers have that skill, while mailing_list skill is more
like lightsaber -- "An elegant weapon...for a more civilized age", but for a very chosen.

---

Ondřej Synáček <ondrej@synacek.org> wrote:
>I think using GH would help with onboarding new contributors and
>people filing issues.

Yes, I am not proposing to leave sr.ht completely, but existence of an
alternative which can be used by common people would be very nice.

>HOWEVER, people who prefer using aerc are kind of people who like
>git over email.

There are other people, like me, which prefer aerc over neomutt because
it is easier to set up and "never gets locked up by a flaky network, as
mutt often does"

---

Chris Höppner <chris@mkaito.net> wrote:
>How plaintext email is such a polarising topic is beyond me. 

Well, the article was not written by me and it is real.
I spent 2-3 hours trying to participate in this thread in the right way,
looking for all necessary info.
I almost gave up a few times, from my perspective it looks like a
sufficient enough barrier.


---
Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
>Mooving to codeberg (or whatever) wouldn't make aerc easier to find, or 
>easier to download, or easier to contribute to, or easier to patch from.
>
>if you want aerc to be easier to find, then blog about how you're using 
>it, tell your friends about it, make a youtube (or whatever) video about it.

I disagree on the contribution part, but I see that I will not be able to change your mind.
Can someone change links at https://aerc-mail.org/ to the new fork at least?
It will be a huge help for people who googling aerc.

Re: Fork proposal

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mailrupile@gmail.com wrote on 2021-11-16 13:46:
> Kalyan Sriram <kalyan@coderkalyan.com> wrote:
>> The people who want a federated, open source/open standard,
>> non-commerically motivated, efficient, secure chat protocol.
> 
> Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
>> source hut (sr.ht) is one of the great wonders of this modern
>> too-centralized era and we should be moving things _to_ it not _from_ it.
> 
> Are you aware that this mail list is run using AWS Simple Email Service?

i was not. in any case i was referring to the git service not the e-mail 
service (and not the chat service, if any.)

> And may I ask you, what hardware/OS are you using, could it be Macbook by some chance?

i won't use mac/os, knowing as i do that apple has control over that 
platform's firewall, and will exempt their own apps from my filtering 
rules whenever they feel that it is in their corporate interests to do 
so. (i do have an i-watch which was a gift from my son, and an i-phone 
which i bought to control the i-watch.)

my OS is suse leap 15.3 and freebsd 12.2, running inside virtual 
machine. the mobile hardware is a thinkpad, and the hypervisor is 
microsoft hyper-v. not sure why any of that matters. my racked hardware 
is supermicro, and the hypervisor is freebsd's "bhyve".

> Nicolai Dagestad <nicolai@dagestad.fr> wrote:
>> ...
> 
>> What makes you think that the github pull request workflow is more developer friendly?
> 
> Well, maybe it is not more friendly but it is de-facto standard and 
> majority of developers have that skill, while mailing_list skill is
> more like lightsaber -- "An elegant weapon...for a more civilized
> age", but for a very chosen.

i remember making that argument for cvs, back when git first appeared. 
there will always be folks who like the de-facto standard, but i feel 
fortunate that there will always be other folks who want to invent a 
better future by trying various alternatives. git turned out to be 
better than cvs for me, and i should have tried it earlier than i did.

> ...
> 
> There are other people, like me, which prefer aerc over neomutt because
> it is easier to set up and "never gets locked up by a flaky network, as
> mutt often does"

just saying, "+1."

> Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
>> Moving to codeberg (or whatever) wouldn't make aerc easier to find, or
>> easier to download, or easier to contribute to, or easier to patch from.
>>
>> if you want aerc to be easier to find, then blog about how you're using
>> it, tell your friends about it, make a youtube (or whatever) video about it.
> 
> I disagree on the contribution part, but I see that I will not be
> able to change your mind.

let me clarify what you won't be able to change about my mind. i like 
github and i use it often -- see https://github.com/vixie/cron for an 
example. i also like source-hut and i plan to increase my use of it. i 
think both will continue to evolve, but with different preconceptions, 
different strengths, and different weaknesses. i intend to live in an 
economy where many approaches were tried and the good ones thrive.

so, you won't be able to convince me that noone will ever need more than 
640K, or that noone will ever need any features that github won't evolve 
to discover and make de-facto.

> Can someone change links at https://aerc-mail.org/ to the new fork
> at least? It will be a huge help for people who googling aerc.

agreed.

vixie


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Re: Fork proposal

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lists.sr.ht definitely does not use AWS's email thing.

This thread ceased being productive a while ago. Let's leave it be and
move on. This is me talking with my moderator hat on, I will go press
the appropriate buttons to enforce this if necessary.

Re: Fork proposal

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>lists.sr.ht definitely does not use AWS's email thing.

I rechecked -- yes, sorry, my bad.
I was confused by "mailto:~sircmpwn/aerc@lists.sr.ht?cc=Kalyan%20Sriram%20%3Ckalyan%40coderkalyan.com%3E&amp;in-reply-to=%3C0101017d2631dd49-ba71b9cb-c4d4-44e2-ba94-22060a6bab87-000000%40us-west-2.amazonses.com%3E&amp;subject=Re%3A%20Fork%20proposal" link

Sprinkled ashes on my head already T_T'

>This thread ceased being productive a while ago. Let's leave it be and
>move on.

OK, thanks to everyone for your patience and answers, cu.
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