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Re: A megacorp is not your dream job

Nik
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> Why should you invest in them? Why should you give a company that isn’t invested
> in you 40+ hours of your week, half your waking life, the only life you get?

The answer could be simple: if you have a choice to work in megacorp and
somewhere else, will this somewhere else pay comparable at least?


> The company will be good at advertising their jobs, especially to fresh grads, 
> and you will no doubt have dozens of cool project in mind that you’re itching 
> to get involved with. You won’t be assigned any of them — all vacancies are 
> already filled by tenured staff and nepotism. 
> You’re more likely to work on a product you have hardly ever heard of or used, 
> doing work that doesn’t interest you or meaningfully impact anyone you know.

You've described almost _any_ company, IMO, especially from the point of
view of a new grad. Sure, in any "established" company all the best
vacancies are already filled with people who joined before(or who
actually built these interesting projects initially).

The alternatives would be to join an early-stage startup or even start
it yourself. But there are significant trade-offs: job security and a
paycheck would be incomparable to big companies. And not everybody could
start a startup(run the business in general).


> They won’t care about you. They won’t be invested in you.

They pay you and create working environment. Isn't it enough? Sure, 
the only person who really cares about you is you yourself.


-- 
Regards,
Nik

Re: A megacorp is not your dream job

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On Sat Jan 2, 2021 at 11:10 AM EST, Nik wrote:
> > Why should you invest in them? Why should you give a company that isn’t invested
> > in you 40+ hours of your week, half your waking life, the only life you get?
>
> The answer could be simple: if you have a choice to work in megacorp and
> somewhere else, will this somewhere else pay comparable at least?

Reducing everything to money is incredibly shallow. And remember that my
article discusses the moral implications: answering questions of
morality with an appeal to your wallet is downright despicable.

> You've described almost _any_ company, IMO, especially from the point of
> view of a new grad. Sure, in any "established" company all the best
> vacancies are already filled with people who joined before(or who
> actually built these interesting projects initially).

There are many companies like this, but there are also many companies
that are not like this. However, my comments apply almost universally to
megacorps. You can find good and bad outside of megacorps, but you can
generally only find bad within megacorps.

> The alternatives would be to join an early-stage startup or even start
> it yourself. But there are significant trade-offs: job security and a
> paycheck would be incomparable to big companies. And not everybody could
> start a startup(run the business in general).

There are many options between the extremes of megacorp and startup.

> > They won’t care about you. They won’t be invested in you.
>
> They pay you and create working environment. Isn't it enough? Sure,
> the only person who really cares about you is you yourself.

This reads like you're retroactively justifying your own position. Do
you work at a megacorp?

In any case, the answer is no, it's not enough, and you can expect more
from most companies.

Re: A megacorp is not your dream job

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Hey Nik,

>> The company will be good at advertising their jobs, especially to fresh grads, 
>> and you will no doubt have dozens of cool project in mind that you’re itching 
>> to get involved with. You won’t be assigned any of them — all vacancies are 
>> already filled by tenured staff and nepotism. 
>> You’re more likely to work on a product you have hardly ever heard of or used, 
>> doing work that doesn’t interest you or meaningfully impact anyone you know.
Nik <nkchern@gmail.com> writes:
>
> [..]
>
> The alternatives would be to join an early-stage startup or even start
> it yourself. But there are significant trade-offs: job security and a
> paycheck would be incomparable to big companies. And not everybody could
> start a startup(run the business in general).

There is a middle-ground. There are organizations that will pay you to
be on call for startup positions. I was involved with one recently[1]
and they placed me at a few startups. I got to pick ones which best
aligned with my interests.

Organizations like these focus on the engineer's success, as good
engineers are their main product. They invest internally to make sure
engineers have access to learning resources, peer learning sessions,
etc. This makes it a great resource for startups looking for talent, and
for engineers who want to ethically develop their career without having
to sell their souls to BigCorps. Hopefully there will be more
organizations like these in the future.

Cheers,
Will

[1] https://commit.dev/ 


-- 
https://jb55.com

Re: A megacorp is not your dream job

Nik
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On Sat, Jan 02, 2021 at 08:28:18AM -0800, William Casarin wrote:

> Organizations like these focus on the engineer's success, as good
> engineers are their main product. They invest internally to make sure
> engineers have access to learning resources, peer learning sessions,
> etc. 

Oh, well... I obviously can't comment on the concrete company you
mentioned(and thanks for the example!) as I've never heard of it before.
But let me express some general scepticism. Every other company(definitely 
including megacorps) and even startups nowadays offer "education budget",
"access to learning resources", "conference participation", "continuous learning", 
"staying ahead of the curve" and whatnot.
As a result we just have tons of JS frameworks, cluster controllers,
distributed logs, etc. etc. 
This is not for better engineering definitely(I actually can't explain
this phenomenon). But probably this is a complete off-topic :)

-- 
Regards,
Nik

Re: A megacorp is not your dream job

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Not sure about Nik; I do work for a megacorp ($FB), and generally agree
with Drew. Happy to share my 2 cents, with the caveat that there are
things I can't discuss in a public space like this.

On Sat, 2021-01-02 at 16:12 +0000, Drew DeVault wrote:
> On Sat Jan 2, 2021 at 11:10 AM EST, Nik wrote:
> > > Why should you invest in them? Why should you give a company that
> > > isn’t invested
> > > in you 40+ hours of your week, half your waking life, the only
> > > life you get?
> > 
> > The answer could be simple: if you have a choice to work in
> > megacorp and
> > somewhere else, will this somewhere else pay comparable at least?
> 
> Reducing everything to money is incredibly shallow. And remember that
> my
> article discusses the moral implications: answering questions of
> morality with an appeal to your wallet is downright despicable.
> 
Agreed, it shouldn't be just about money (or benefits - especially in
the US context, where a lot of facilities that EU workers consider
fundamental rights - PTO, sick day, parental leave, health insurance -
are not mandatory).

Also agreed that as a new grad / new H1B you probably don't have much
of a choice (though at least at my workplace, employees get to pick
which team to join - and are encouraged to transfer between teams - and
if you're really lucky a team that does a lot of open source has an
opening!).

The open source work that some megacorps do (Google, FB - not so much
Apple) is where the salary disparity becomes a problem ... for
competitors. Witness how many Linux kernel and software engineers end
up at $FB! (Normally from other large companies though, where a lot of
the same management issues probably apply too). Better pay, and you
still get to work on projects that interest you and you can take
elsewhere. Though you then potentially help whitewash a megacorp's
reputation...

> 
> > > They won’t care about you. They won’t be invested in you.
> > 
> > They pay you and create working environment. Isn't it enough? Sure,
> > the only person who really cares about you is you yourself.
> 
> This reads like you're retroactively justifying your own position. Do
> you work at a megacorp?
> 
> In any case, the answer is no, it's not enough, and you can expect
> more
> from most companies.
Yeah, becoming a cog in the wheel in exchange for money doesn't sound
like a worthwhile trade-off, especially in the long term. It could be a
nice stepping stone if you're starting out - and sadly given the broken
immigration policy here in the US, workers from some countries end up
entrapped on H1B visas for *decades*. You can move though - just make
sure you have a new job before quitting. But these workers likely can't
be outspoken since their choices are likely limited to mostly other
megacorps that are used to facilitating H1Bs.

Best,

-- 
Michel Alexandre Salim
profile: https://keyoxide.org/michel@michel-slm.name
chat via email: https://delta.chat/
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