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Terms of Service Vocabulary

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Should the Terms of Service be updated to use the terminology of
SourceHut vs sr.ht? If so, I would be interested in practicing
my git-email abilities and submitting a patch.


Tristan Partin
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Thanks for the offer Tristan, but patches for this wouldn't be helpful.
The company's legal name is "sr.ht", Sourcehut is just for marketing.
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Dear Drew,

No offense meant, but you totally missed the point.

Tristan would like to send a patch, and was hoping name-changing in
whatever doc would be a good way to do it.

I encourage this. I have every reason to understand you encourage this
(in principle). The substance of the change is not material. This is
the boss battle at the end of the dungeon of
https://git-send-email.io/, and it is a critical part of our hero's
journey. (Literary aside: Don't play King Mark to Tristan as himself,
be the deus ex machina that causes a happy ending for reasons external
to the system. Isolde is the animus FOSSus. I just made that up, I'm a
gosh dang genius eh?)

In this vein, I recommend that you somehow do something -- gasp --
that has become a tradition on GitHub. Fortunately, it has nothing to
do with that unfree stars-driven SVN replacement, and everything to do
with the topic at hand. There is a thing people do where they tag
issues as "good first issue." I can find you some samples. I'm sure I
don't have to. This is emphatically a damn good idea.

Somebody who is not you might be a "better choice" for this kind of
activity (creating a list of "good first issues"). Delegating is also
a good thing. Ludovic Chabant took this kind of thing upon himself,
but specific and material returns can be made on the investment of
lowering the bar for contribution, especially first-time contribution.
There is a very clear argument for an obvious communal gain here,
which your terse and not-ill-intentioned reply elided because it
wasn't, I guess, top of mind. So you should find somebody to do that,
I mean make some "good first issues," in my not-so-humble (okay,
pretty humble in reality) opinion. :) I dunno. Literally not my
business.

I bet even the Linux kernel has these. Oh, look at that shit:
https://www.linux.com/news/three-ways-beginners-contribute-linux-kernel/

I think there must be some bits you need flipped off of the Wayland
desktop and onto someone else's plate or whatever.

Anyway sorry for the strongly worded mailing but I'm trying to
advocate for something very trivial yet also very serious, so, please
give this matter the attention it deserves. I want to see Sourcehut
succeed, and not only as a one-man show, but as a fully fledged blah
blah. The kind of thing you can be like, yeah, I was there for the
private alpha.

Regards,

Charlie
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Drew,

No worries. Makes total sense legally speaking. Thanks for
getting back to me. Hope to contribute soon.


Tristan Partin
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On Tue Oct 8, 2019 at 8:40 PM Charlie Eddy wrote:
> Dear Drew,
> 
> No offense meant, but you totally missed the point.
> 
> Tristan would like to send a patch, and was hoping name-changing in
> whatever doc would be a good way to do it.
> 
> I encourage this. I have every reason to understand you encourage this
> (in principle). The substance of the change is not material.

FWIW this specific change _is_ of material consequence. Everyone on the
site has to be notified of changes to the ToS and I have to run them
past a lawyer.

If Tristan, or you, or anyone else would like some direction on other
easy patches to get involved with, please reach out to me and I'll find
something for you to do.

> In this vein, I recommend that you somehow do something -- gasp --
> that has become a tradition on GitHub. Fortunately, it has nothing to
> do with that unfree stars-driven SVN replacement, and everything to do
> with the topic at hand. There is a thing people do where they tag
> issues as "good first issue." I can find you some samples. I'm sure I
> don't have to. This is emphatically a damn good idea.

There are "good first issues" on my aerc bugtracker, but I haven't
gotten around to doing them for *.sr.ht because the exact nature of
dealing with bug reports vs questions vs feature requests vs etc is not
entirely defined yet.

> Somebody who is not you might be a "better choice" for this kind of
> activity (creating a list of "good first issues"). Delegating is also
> a good thing. Ludovic Chabant took this kind of thing upon himself,
> but specific and material returns can be made on the investment of
> lowering the bar for contribution, especially first-time contribution.
> There is a very clear argument for an obvious communal gain here,
> which your terse and not-ill-intentioned reply elided because it
> wasn't, I guess, top of mind. So you should find somebody to do that,
> I mean make some "good first issues," in my not-so-humble (okay,
> pretty humble in reality) opinion. :) I dunno. Literally not my
> business.
> 
> I bet even the Linux kernel has these. Oh, look at that shit:
> https://www.linux.com/news/three-ways-beginners-contribute-linux-kernel/
> 
> I think there must be some bits you need flipped off of the Wayland
> desktop and onto someone else's plate or whatever.
> 
> Anyway sorry for the strongly worded mailing but I'm trying to
> advocate for something very trivial yet also very serious, so, please
> give this matter the attention it deserves. I want to see Sourcehut
> succeed, and not only as a one-man show, but as a fully fledged blah
> blah. The kind of thing you can be like, yeah, I was there for the
> private alpha.

Rest assured that I delegate tasks all the time and do a fine job of it,
thank you very much. Naturally I also have an interest in the success of
Sourcehut. However, I have to prioritize my limited bandwidth, and
organizing & prioritizing the 1% of the work which is easily done by new
contributors is less important than spending that time on the 99% of the
basic architectural design and development.

If Sourcehut had employees, the value proposition would be different,
but the budget does not allow for that and I cannot burden volunteers
with heavy expectations. At best, I can encourage them to work on what
interests them and put everything on their plate on my own perpetual
backburner in case they cannot find the time or inclination to work on
these tasks. This approach is slow, but it assures a healthy project
where everyone involved is involved at a level they're comfortable with
and will not burn out. This approach has worked for me before.

That's not to say that I don't understand the value of mentoring a new
contributor from easy tasks to hard tasks, which I've done many times
with many different contributors for a variety of projects, including
projects I'm not even a maintainer of or contributor to. However, the
quantity and breadth of the "hard" tasks Sourcehut faces are of a
sufficient magnitude that it's unlikely that anyone will become familiar
enough with the systems as a whole to address the large, cross-cutting
problems on its todo list. Instead, I have contributors focus on smaller
issues, like the maintenance of build images or specialization in a
particular domain (literally and figuratively) of the service, catering
to their existing strengths. It's working out pretty well, but you will
need to exercise patience to see the results of long-term,
architecture-scale developments.

In any case, I appreciate your concern, support, and words of advice.
Sourcehut is getting there.
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Understood, and it's no problem, really just an opinion. Sorry if I
came off flamey

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 9:14 PM Drew DeVault <sir@cmpwn.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue Oct 8, 2019 at 8:40 PM Charlie Eddy wrote:
> > Dear Drew,
> >
> > No offense meant, but you totally missed the point.
> >
> > Tristan would like to send a patch, and was hoping name-changing in
> > whatever doc would be a good way to do it.
> >
> > I encourage this. I have every reason to understand you encourage this
> > (in principle). The substance of the change is not material.
>
> FWIW this specific change _is_ of material consequence. Everyone on the
> site has to be notified of changes to the ToS and I have to run them
> past a lawyer.
>
> If Tristan, or you, or anyone else would like some direction on other
> easy patches to get involved with, please reach out to me and I'll find
> something for you to do.
>
> > In this vein, I recommend that you somehow do something -- gasp --
> > that has become a tradition on GitHub. Fortunately, it has nothing to
> > do with that unfree stars-driven SVN replacement, and everything to do
> > with the topic at hand. There is a thing people do where they tag
> > issues as "good first issue." I can find you some samples. I'm sure I
> > don't have to. This is emphatically a damn good idea.
>
> There are "good first issues" on my aerc bugtracker, but I haven't
> gotten around to doing them for *.sr.ht because the exact nature of
> dealing with bug reports vs questions vs feature requests vs etc is not
> entirely defined yet.
>
> > Somebody who is not you might be a "better choice" for this kind of
> > activity (creating a list of "good first issues"). Delegating is also
> > a good thing. Ludovic Chabant took this kind of thing upon himself,
> > but specific and material returns can be made on the investment of
> > lowering the bar for contribution, especially first-time contribution.
> > There is a very clear argument for an obvious communal gain here,
> > which your terse and not-ill-intentioned reply elided because it
> > wasn't, I guess, top of mind. So you should find somebody to do that,
> > I mean make some "good first issues," in my not-so-humble (okay,
> > pretty humble in reality) opinion. :) I dunno. Literally not my
> > business.
> >
> > I bet even the Linux kernel has these. Oh, look at that shit:
> > https://www.linux.com/news/three-ways-beginners-contribute-linux-kernel/
> >
> > I think there must be some bits you need flipped off of the Wayland
> > desktop and onto someone else's plate or whatever.
> >
> > Anyway sorry for the strongly worded mailing but I'm trying to
> > advocate for something very trivial yet also very serious, so, please
> > give this matter the attention it deserves. I want to see Sourcehut
> > succeed, and not only as a one-man show, but as a fully fledged blah
> > blah. The kind of thing you can be like, yeah, I was there for the
> > private alpha.
>
> Rest assured that I delegate tasks all the time and do a fine job of it,
> thank you very much. Naturally I also have an interest in the success of
> Sourcehut. However, I have to prioritize my limited bandwidth, and
> organizing & prioritizing the 1% of the work which is easily done by new
> contributors is less important than spending that time on the 99% of the
> basic architectural design and development.
>
> If Sourcehut had employees, the value proposition would be different,
> but the budget does not allow for that and I cannot burden volunteers
> with heavy expectations. At best, I can encourage them to work on what
> interests them and put everything on their plate on my own perpetual
> backburner in case they cannot find the time or inclination to work on
> these tasks. This approach is slow, but it assures a healthy project
> where everyone involved is involved at a level they're comfortable with
> and will not burn out. This approach has worked for me before.
>
> That's not to say that I don't understand the value of mentoring a new
> contributor from easy tasks to hard tasks, which I've done many times
> with many different contributors for a variety of projects, including
> projects I'm not even a maintainer of or contributor to. However, the
> quantity and breadth of the "hard" tasks Sourcehut faces are of a
> sufficient magnitude that it's unlikely that anyone will become familiar
> enough with the systems as a whole to address the large, cross-cutting
> problems on its todo list. Instead, I have contributors focus on smaller
> issues, like the maintenance of build images or specialization in a
> particular domain (literally and figuratively) of the service, catering
> to their existing strengths. It's working out pretty well, but you will
> need to exercise patience to see the results of long-term,
> architecture-scale developments.
>
> In any case, I appreciate your concern, support, and words of advice.
> Sourcehut is getting there.
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lookie here tristan
https://todo.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/aerc2?search=label%3A%22good+first+ticket%22

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 9:14 PM Drew DeVault <sir@cmpwn.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue Oct 8, 2019 at 8:40 PM Charlie Eddy wrote:
> > Dear Drew,
> >
> > No offense meant, but you totally missed the point.
> >
> > Tristan would like to send a patch, and was hoping name-changing in
> > whatever doc would be a good way to do it.
> >
> > I encourage this. I have every reason to understand you encourage this
> > (in principle). The substance of the change is not material.
>
> FWIW this specific change _is_ of material consequence. Everyone on the
> site has to be notified of changes to the ToS and I have to run them
> past a lawyer.
>
> If Tristan, or you, or anyone else would like some direction on other
> easy patches to get involved with, please reach out to me and I'll find
> something for you to do.
>
> > In this vein, I recommend that you somehow do something -- gasp --
> > that has become a tradition on GitHub. Fortunately, it has nothing to
> > do with that unfree stars-driven SVN replacement, and everything to do
> > with the topic at hand. There is a thing people do where they tag
> > issues as "good first issue." I can find you some samples. I'm sure I
> > don't have to. This is emphatically a damn good idea.
>
> There are "good first issues" on my aerc bugtracker, but I haven't
> gotten around to doing them for *.sr.ht because the exact nature of
> dealing with bug reports vs questions vs feature requests vs etc is not
> entirely defined yet.
>
> > Somebody who is not you might be a "better choice" for this kind of
> > activity (creating a list of "good first issues"). Delegating is also
> > a good thing. Ludovic Chabant took this kind of thing upon himself,
> > but specific and material returns can be made on the investment of
> > lowering the bar for contribution, especially first-time contribution.
> > There is a very clear argument for an obvious communal gain here,
> > which your terse and not-ill-intentioned reply elided because it
> > wasn't, I guess, top of mind. So you should find somebody to do that,
> > I mean make some "good first issues," in my not-so-humble (okay,
> > pretty humble in reality) opinion. :) I dunno. Literally not my
> > business.
> >
> > I bet even the Linux kernel has these. Oh, look at that shit:
> > https://www.linux.com/news/three-ways-beginners-contribute-linux-kernel/
> >
> > I think there must be some bits you need flipped off of the Wayland
> > desktop and onto someone else's plate or whatever.
> >
> > Anyway sorry for the strongly worded mailing but I'm trying to
> > advocate for something very trivial yet also very serious, so, please
> > give this matter the attention it deserves. I want to see Sourcehut
> > succeed, and not only as a one-man show, but as a fully fledged blah
> > blah. The kind of thing you can be like, yeah, I was there for the
> > private alpha.
>
> Rest assured that I delegate tasks all the time and do a fine job of it,
> thank you very much. Naturally I also have an interest in the success of
> Sourcehut. However, I have to prioritize my limited bandwidth, and
> organizing & prioritizing the 1% of the work which is easily done by new
> contributors is less important than spending that time on the 99% of the
> basic architectural design and development.
>
> If Sourcehut had employees, the value proposition would be different,
> but the budget does not allow for that and I cannot burden volunteers
> with heavy expectations. At best, I can encourage them to work on what
> interests them and put everything on their plate on my own perpetual
> backburner in case they cannot find the time or inclination to work on
> these tasks. This approach is slow, but it assures a healthy project
> where everyone involved is involved at a level they're comfortable with
> and will not burn out. This approach has worked for me before.
>
> That's not to say that I don't understand the value of mentoring a new
> contributor from easy tasks to hard tasks, which I've done many times
> with many different contributors for a variety of projects, including
> projects I'm not even a maintainer of or contributor to. However, the
> quantity and breadth of the "hard" tasks Sourcehut faces are of a
> sufficient magnitude that it's unlikely that anyone will become familiar
> enough with the systems as a whole to address the large, cross-cutting
> problems on its todo list. Instead, I have contributors focus on smaller
> issues, like the maintenance of build images or specialization in a
> particular domain (literally and figuratively) of the service, catering
> to their existing strengths. It's working out pretty well, but you will
> need to exercise patience to see the results of long-term,
> architecture-scale developments.
>
> In any case, I appreciate your concern, support, and words of advice.
> Sourcehut is getting there.
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