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list archives are displayed without word-wrap

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Is there a way to have word-wrap on the archive display ?

Or is it a TODO ?

Or is it a design choice ?

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Jean-Christophe Helary @brandelune
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https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/
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This is a deliberate design decision. Mailing list ettiquite calls for
the sender to hard-wrap their text at 72 columns, or to use
format=flowed.
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I'm not talking about mailing list but about web display of archives.

It looks to me that the

<pre class="message-body">

could have a nice css3 rule that goes like this:

.message-body {
white-space: pre-wrap;
}

That would not change the contents and would allow people who are stuck in post-RFC-3676 to send readable things to the archive.

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On Sun May 30, 2021 at 9:12 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> I'm not talking about mailing list but about web display of archives.

I am aware of that.
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> On May 30, 2021, at 22:13, Drew DeVault <sir@cmpwn.com> wrote:
> On Sun May 30, 2021 at 9:12 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>> I'm not talking about mailing list but about web display of archives.
> 
> I am aware of that.

And ?

As far as I can tell, there is no way for me to tweak my mail client so as to follow your rules, I am pretty sure that all the people who work on that list can't either, and even the mail I send to the emacs-dev list (where there are a few uptight people too) is properly word-wrapped displayed in their archives.

So what's the technical point not word-wrapping the *html display* of the list archives on sr-ht ?


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On Sun May 30, 2021 at 9:20 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> > On May 30, 2021, at 22:13, Drew DeVault <sir@cmpwn.com> wrote:
> > On Sun May 30, 2021 at 9:12 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> >> I'm not talking about mailing list but about web display of archives.
> > 
> > I am aware of that.
>
> And ?
>
> As far as I can tell, there is no way for me to tweak my mail client so
> as to follow your rules, I am pretty sure that all the people who work
> on that list can't either, and even the mail I send to the emacs-dev
> list (where there are a few uptight people too) is properly word-wrapped
> displayed in their archives.

https://useplaintext.email can help you configure your client or choose
a more appropriate one. Your bad mail client is not a sufficient
motivator for us to change our software to accomodate it.
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> On May 30, 2021, at 22:21, Drew DeVault <sir@cmpwn.com> wrote:
> On Sun May 30, 2021 at 9:20 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>>> On May 30, 2021, at 22:13, Drew DeVault <sir@cmpwn.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun May 30, 2021 at 9:12 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>>>> I'm not talking about mailing list but about web display of archives.
>>> 
>>> I am aware of that.
>> 
>> And ?
>> 
>> As far as I can tell, there is no way for me to tweak my mail client so
>> as to follow your rules, I am pretty sure that all the people who work
>> on that list can't either, and even the mail I send to the emacs-dev
>> list (where there are a few uptight people too) is properly word-wrapped
>> displayed in their archives.
> 
> https://useplaintext.email can help you configure your client

That page has incorrect information regarding Apple Mail.
The settings are not sufficient to produce the desired output.

I was actually going to send a mail about that.

> Your bad mail client is not a sufficient
> motivator for us to change our software to accomodate it.

My web browser can fully accommodate proper CSS. My "bad" mail client has nothing to do with how the archive is displayed as HTML on your site.

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https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/
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> My web browser can fully accommodate proper CSS. My "bad" mail client has nothing to do with how the archive is displayed as HTML on your site.

Many people read the list using plain text email clients and
unwrapped emails like your indeed annoys us.  Wrapping the rendered HTML
only give people an excuse to ignore actual email formatting.
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On Sun, 30 May 2021 20:57 +0700, Nguyễn Gia Phong wrote:
>Wrapping the rendered HTML only give people an excuse to ignore actual 
>email formatting.

The convention of wrapping lines in at 78 characters makes sense for 
email where people read messages in clients that often don't have the 
ability to automatically re-wrap text in a responsive way based on the 
width of the client. This is not true for HTML and web browsers where 
text is automatically reflowed to fit the viewport. It's just forcing a 
convention for convention's sake, disregarding the reason the convention 
exists in the first place.

By the way, even Mutt wraps long email lines to the width of the pager 
instead of forcing me to scroll horizontally. So it's not even correct 
to say that not wrapping long lines in the web browser is somehow 
adhering to the spirit of mail clients.
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It's not just for convention's sake. People will often add inline code
snippets, ASCII diagrams, and so on, in plaintext emails. We preserve
formatting for a reason.
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> On May 30, 2021, at 22:57, Nguyễn Gia Phong <mcsinyx@disroot.org> wrote:
> 
>> My web browser can fully accommodate proper CSS. My "bad" mail client has nothing to do with how the archive is displayed as HTML on your site.
> 
> Many people read the list using plain text email clients and
> unwrapped emails like your indeed annoys us.

I'm really sorry for that.

> Wrapping the rendered HTML only give people an excuse to ignore actual email formatting.

No. Wrapping the rendered HTML to the view-port give unrelated people the ability to read the list archives with ease.

Also, it's pretty easy with CSS3 to check whether the view-port is wide enough, or not, and make display decisions on that.

I think that's a feature called "accessibility".

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https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/
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> On May 30, 2021, at 23:24, Drew DeVault <sir@cmpwn.com> wrote:
> 
> It's not just for convention's sake. People will often add inline code
> snippets, ASCII diagrams, and so on, in plaintext emails. We preserve
> formatting for a reason.

Documents that are properly wrapped at 72 or 78 or wherever will be properly displayed and documents that make use of that CSS property will also be properly displayed.

Adding 

.message-body {
white-space: pre-wrap;
}

will not change your ability to properly display all that in the web archives.

So I'm not sure I see any technical reason for not properly rendering the web archives with word-wrap based on the view-port width.


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Jean-Christophe Helary @brandelune
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https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/
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On Sun May 30, 2021 at 10:48 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> > It's not just for convention's sake. People will often add inline code
> > snippets, ASCII diagrams, and so on, in plaintext emails. We preserve
> > formatting for a reason.
>
> Documents that are properly wrapped at 72 or 78 or wherever will be
> properly displayed and documents that make use of that CSS property will
> also be properly displayed.

Because some people also deliberately format their lines exceeding the
limit in some cases, for example with an embedded log file or some such.

The answer is no. It's been discussed before. Fix your mail client.
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> On May 30, 2021, at 23:50, Drew DeVault <sir@cmpwn.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sun May 30, 2021 at 10:48 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>>> It's not just for convention's sake. People will often add inline code
>>> snippets, ASCII diagrams, and so on, in plaintext emails. We preserve
>>> formatting for a reason.
>> 
>> Documents that are properly wrapped at 72 or 78 or wherever will be
>> properly displayed and documents that make use of that CSS property will
>> also be properly displayed.
> 
> Because some people also deliberately format their lines exceeding the
> limit in some cases, for example with an embedded log file or some such.

And how is wrapping an embedded log file a problem when checking it on the *web archive* ?

> The answer is no. It's been discussed before. Fix your mail client.

The information you gave about my email client is wrong. I can't fix it and I can't change it.

And as I just wrote, it is not about *my mail client* it is about people who are going to access the discussion from the web interface.

You're forcing a web browser to behave like a mail client from the 80’s. Even your mail client can properly wrap the mail I send.

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Jean-Christophe Helary @brandelune
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https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/
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On Sun May 30, 2021 at 10:59 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> The information you gave about my email client is wrong. I can't fix it
> and I can't change it.
>
> And as I just wrote, it is not about *my mail client* it is about people
> who are going to access the discussion from the web interface.
>
> You're forcing a web browser to behave like a mail client from the
> 80’s. Even your mail client can properly wrap the mail I send.

My mail client cannot properly wrap your mails until I reply to them,
because adding the > triggers a reflow.

It is about your mail client using bad practices. If you can't configure
it, replace it. That's enough of this discussion, I'm stopping it here.
Any further statements will incur moderator intervention.
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FYI:

https://useplaintext.email/#macos

is wrong.

Apple Mail does *not* "Wraps text or format=flowed".


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https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/
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On Sun May 30, 2021 at 11:38 AM EDT, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> FYI:
>
> https://useplaintext.email/#macos
>
> is wrong.
>
> Apple Mail does *not* "Wraps text or format=flowed".

Okay, thanks. I'll push up a correction.
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On Mon, 31 May 2021 00:38 +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>FYI:
>
>https://useplaintext.email/#macos
>
>is wrong.
>
>Apple Mail does *not* "Wraps text or format=flowed".

It correctly displays format=flowed messages. It does not generate 
format=flowed though. This is probably an important distinction. Given 
that it doesn't generate format=flowed maybe this should be reverted (I 
am the one who submitted the patch that updated this for Apple Mail).
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> On May 31, 2021, at 0:40, Gregory Anders <greg@gpanders.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 31 May 2021 00:38 +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>> FYI:
>> 
>> https://useplaintext.email/#macos
>> 
>> is wrong.
>> 
>> Apple Mail does *not* "Wraps text or format=flowed".
> 
> It correctly displays format=flowed messages. It does not generate format=flowed though. This is probably an important distinction.

Indeed.

> Given that it doesn't generate format=flowed maybe this should be reverted (I am the one who submitted the patch that updated this for Apple Mail).

It would be useful to know how to do that in Apple Mail, but it looks like the only plugin that allowed for that won't work on BigSur for "security" reasons.


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