On Wed 22 May 2024 09:21:50, finxx wrote:
> Are there any plans or intentions to add centralized versioning to> SourceHut, like CVS or SVN?
Since even mercurial is "community-maintained", I wouldn't bet on
sourcehut actually doing the implementation by themselves, they might be
up to hosting it similar to hg.sr.ht. But don't quote me on that.
I think I remember reading Drew not feeling a need for it, but couldn't
find it just now.
--
Moritz Poldrack
https://moritz.sh> Allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery.
On Wed May 22, 2024 at 4:21 PM CEST, finxx wrote:
> Are there any plans or intentions to add centralized versioning to> SourceHut, like CVS or SVN?
I mean, really [1]? If you really want to use CVS, then get help,
the last stable release of CVS was 16 years ago [2], and there
has never been a reason to use it even before. The fact that some
operating systems are still developed in CVS, … I should probably
not comment on that.
If you want to use SVN in your free time, then you probably need
to get help as well, but probably more in terms of a rehab clinic
then a lunatic asylum. There may be still some hope for you. I
cannot imagine that anybody would start supporting SVN in this
day and age, but as far as I know SourceForge.net still provides
free SVN hosting.
Best,
Matěj
[1] https://youtu.be/idLyobOhtO4 (yes, it is ten years old; I
feel ancient; Gosh, it is even worse, the talk happened
really seventeen years ago and I remember when there was
Google Video hosting service and it was not YouTube!)
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System
-- http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @mcepl@floss.social GPG
Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts
absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, […]
-- Lord Acton (including the more important part of the often
misquoted statement)
> I mean, really [1]? If you really want to use CVS, then get help,> If you want to use SVN in your free time, then you probably need> to get help as well, but probably more in terms of a rehab clinic> then a lunatic asylum.
This is no way to reply to someone, however you feel about their question.
This is a common mailing list so please do not spam people to insult
someone.
I don't know how moderation works on sr.ht but this type of behavior
should earn at least a strike or a temporary block IMO.
T
Matěj Cepl <mcepl@cepl.eu> writes:
> If you want to use SVN in your free time, (...)
While I agree that hosting CVS or SVN repositories is anachronistic, I think this comment is unnecessarily aggressive.
Дана 24/05/22 05:45PM, Matěj Cepl написа:
> I mean, really [1]? If you really want to use CVS, then get help,> the last stable release of CVS was 16 years ago [2], and there> has never been a reason to use it even before. The fact that some> operating systems are still developed in CVS, … I should probably> not comment on that.
Main versioning system used in OpenBSD development is CVS, which didn't hinder
it being perhaps the most proactively secure OS in existence.
* * *
That said, finxx, if you are using OpenBSD, recently I started transitioning to
got[1], which I highly recommend trying out. It is a OpenBSD-based versioning
system which operates on git repositories, so can be seamlessly used on
Sourcehut.
There are strong indications that got might be the next choice for a OpenBSD
development versioning system.
[1]: https://gameoftrees.org
On 5/22/24 4:27 PM, Moritz Poldrack wrote:
> On Wed 22 May 2024 09:21:50, finxx wrote:
> Since even mercurial is "community-maintained", I wouldn't bet on
> sourcehut actually doing the implementation by themselves, they might be
> up to hosting it similar to hg.sr.ht. But don't quote me on that.
> I think I remember reading Drew not feeling a need for it, but couldn't
> find it just now.
>
In the tutorial page on organizing projects
(https://man.sr.ht/tutorials/organizing-projects.md), it is stated that
projects on Sourcehut are "collections of arbitrary resources".
Basically, Sourcehut gives you all the legos, and its fully up to you to
figure out how to build your castle: one project can have multiple
repos, wikis, lists, etc.
If I understand what the OP means, then centralized versioning is
somewhat antithetical to the concept of the site.
I guess you could set up a project that you as a user could treat as a
starting point of all the other stuff related to yourselves
If you meant version control for the site source itself, its kept in
Drews' own project (https://sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sourcehut/) on the site.
On Thu May 23, 2024 at 9:14 AM CEST, Drew DeVault wrote:
> Matěj, this sort of behavior is not acceptable on SourceHut. With your> cooperation, I anticipate that I will not see it again.
I meant it half in jest, because I just cannot believe that
anybody seriously considers starting new project using CVS, so I
think that question was meant half in joke. And I do believe that
it is silly in absolute extreme to start hosting server which
was last released sixteen years ago [1] and last commit to their
development repo was done 14 years ago [2].
I know about OpenBSD, but let me just not comment on them … I
would think it is their extreme conservatism they have never
switched, and the close character of their community which make
us unable to understand the context of their decisions, but let
keep them as an outlier.
For SVN, even I am still with Linus in his opinions on SVN, if
you noticed, I have actually suggested working solution for them
(and I spent some time to check that Sourceforge still provides
SVN for new projects, and it wasn’t fun, because their website is
really horrible). And yes, I believe that using any centralised
code repository is … yes, I am not allowed to use those words, so
you can fill-in, what I actually want to say.
Concerning strong language and strong opinions. Yes, I understand
it is normal in this time and age of intolerance just to ignore
each other, praise them, or stab them in their back, but I still
don’t believe that it is right. And telling somebody who wants
to waste years of their lives on something you know will hurt
them in the end, and just limiting yourself to saying that you
don’t think their opinion is as awesome as is their standard
(which is probably most what I am expected to say) just won’t
help anybody. You need to use more forceful langauge to persuade
somebody not to cut themselves.
However, it is your server, your email list, so you have right to
set up any censorship policy you want.
Best,
Matěj
[1] Yes, I see in
https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory/cvs
that there are packages for CVS, and although quality of data
in the https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=cvs
query is somehow lacking (I am apparently not the only person
who constantly misspells CVS as CSV), it is not even a complete
security disaster I would expect it to be.
[2] https://cvs.savannah.nongnu.org/viewvc/cvs/ccvs/, also see
these last messages on their respective email lists, which
illustrate the state of the project rather well (check dates on
those messages!)
https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/cvs-cvs/2012-10/msg00000.html,
https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/bug-cvs/2023-11/msg00000.html.
--
http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @mcepl@floss.social
GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
And do you know, Sonia, that low ceilings and tiny rooms cramp
the soul and the mind?
-- Fyodor Dostoevsky: Crime and Punishment
> I meant it half in jest, because I just cannot believe that
> anybody seriously considers starting new project using CVS, so I
> think that question was meant half in joke. And I do believe that
> it is silly in absolute extreme to start hosting server which
> was last released sixteen years ago [1] and last commit to their
> development repo was done 14 years ago [2].
>
It wouldn't be the first time i see a program that has not been updated
in years, sometimes decades, being used in contemporary projects:
sometimes its because projects come to an apogee where there is simply
no more meaningful features to add, or most bugs were resolved and
people simply dont find any (partly due to lack of users): this is
afterall, a project that has been maintained since mid-80s, meaning that
even with the last update being 16 years ago, it had over 3 decades of
development behind it.
Most likely scenario, however, is that they have an existing project
that was worked on in CVS and wish to port it elsewhere
> Concerning strong language and strong opinions. Yes, I understand
> it is normal in this time and age of intolerance just to ignore
> each other, praise them, or stab them in their back, but I still
> don’t believe that it is right. And telling somebody who wants
> to waste years of their lives on something you know will hurt
> them in the end, and just limiting yourself to saying that you
> don’t think their opinion is as awesome as is their standard
> (which is probably most what I am expected to say) just won’t
> help anybody. You need to use more forceful langauge to persuade
> somebody not to cut themselves.
>
I value feedback and suggestions on what software to use, especially
with elaborations on what aspects you believe address the use case
better, and I'm sure most people on this site do too, however,there were
much better ways of informing them of your opinion that CVS and SVN
should be avoided for version control than suggesting them attend a
lunatic asylum.
Using forceful language in situations like these is of no help: if they
want or need to use CVS for some reason, you're not going to stop them
by insulting them. You're just going to annoy them off the site, or,
even worse, make them use it out of spite. Telling them that these
projects have not been maintained in decades, and pointing out any of
the flaws over the alternatives is much more persuasive than outright
offending them.
I ask a question about CVS/SVN hosting on sr.ht, and I am recommended to
check into my local psychiatric ward. I just prefer Subversion over Git,
and sending me the same Linus talk you always see in discussions about
centralized versioning does not change that fact.
I guess I could try hacking git.sr.ht to use Subversion, but that does
not sound like a fun first web development project. Even if I did, and
it miraculously worked, it probably wouldn't get enough use to justify
hosting it, I guess.
Hey all,
On May 23, 2024 1:03:41 PM UTC, finxx <me@finxx.xyz> wrote:
>I guess I could try hacking git.sr.ht to use Subversion, but that does>not sound like a fun first web development project. Even if I did, and>it miraculously worked, it probably wouldn't get enough use to justify>hosting it, I guess.
For what it's worth, I also like SVN, and if sourcehut were to suddenly start supporting it, I would certainly start using it.
On 5/23/24 3:03 PM, finxx wrote:
> I guess I could try hacking git.sr.ht to use Subversion, but that does> not sound like a fun first web development project. Even if I did, and> it miraculously worked, it probably wouldn't get enough use to justify> hosting it, I guess.
I would recommend you look into the git-svn command
https://git-scm.com/docs/git-svn
I have never user any of the centralized version control system, nor is
this my area of interest, but I highly doubt you will be able to
implement a completely non-git solution: you could probably implement
some form of a translation layer that would enable you to interact with
git using SVN client, but I'm afraid that, right now at least, Sourcehut
is not a place for SVN.
seeing as you have your own domain, I would reccomend you try to host
your own server on it. It's probably your best option right now, short
of seeking another provider, such as Sourceforge.
Дана 24/05/23 10:59AM, Matěj Cepl написа:
> I know about OpenBSD, but let me just not comment on them … I> would think it is their extreme conservatism they have never> switched, and the close character of their community which make> us unable to understand the context of their decisions, but let> keep them as an outlier.
... and then a comment was made anyway. :^)
What can be found by a web search on this matter is that CVS "just worked" for
the OpenBSD developers when they started, and now the hassle of migrating to a
new versioning system outweighs the potential benefits. The system in
development that I mentioned, got, supports importing from CVS and works with
git trees, so could make the transition from CVS less painful. At the same
time, it is not overengineered like git is now (git is old too!), and uses
OpenBSD's native security mechanisms like pledge(2) and unveil(2) to limit
itself should it be misused.
Unrelated but more general, it is perfectly fine for a software project to be
finished; to reach a state where no new features need to be added and no
further optimizations can be made, only squishing the potential bugs. But that
doesn't sound "hip" enough to some.
> [...] You need to use more forceful langauge to persuade> somebody not to cut themselves.
That is forgetting one important detail--that the people have the freedom to
form their opinion and the freedom to do what they want with their lives,
within the bounds of the law and as long as it doesn't hurt others. Anything
else is imposing one's will upon the other human beings, and the opposite of
freedom.
It might sound anachronistic nowadays, but people should be kind to each other.
Matěj Cepl wrote:
> [...] You need to use more forceful langauge to persuade somebody not> to cut themselves. [...]
Matěj, it's one thing to disagree strongly with someone and reply with
plenty of reasoning for your opinion. It's quite another to attempt to
impose your opinion on others forcefully under the guise of helping
them. Even if you _were_ supremely knowledgeable on the subject (which
you could not have been, as you did not first probe for reasons or
context), people are not yours to control.
- Ellie
--
All emails sent by me are cryptographically signed.
Trust signed mail normally, trust unsigned mail little.
Get key: `gpg --locate-keys eleanor@clifford.lol'
finxx <me@finxx.xyz> writes:
> I ask a question about CVS/SVN hosting on sr.ht, and I am recommended to check into my local > psychiatric ward. I just prefer Subversion over Git, and sending me the same Linus talk you always > see in discussions about centralized versioning does not change that fact.
hey finxx,
I want to apologize for the harsh comment you received in this email thread. I assure you it does
not represent the quality of the usual opinion exchange I read on sourcehut.
(speaking in my own capacity, not on behalf of sourcehut)
To all others: I think it would be great if this email thread would keep its focus on the technical
question rather than sidetracking with unpleasant quarrels.
Thanks!
On 5/22/24 11:55, Tanguy Fardet wrote:
> [snip]> > I don't know how moderation works on sr.ht but this type of behavior> should earn at least a strike or a temporary block IMO.
Punitive criminal justice has been shown time and time again to be
inneffective.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:32 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> On 5/22/24 11:55, Tanguy Fardet wrote:>> I don't know how moderation works on sr.ht but this type of behavior>> should earn at least a strike or a temporary block IMO.>> Punitive criminal justice has been shown time and time again to be > inneffective.
Banning people from a mailing list who refuse to participate in
good faith is defensive, not punitive.
zw
On 6/23/24 14:41, Zack Weinberg wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:32 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:>> On 5/22/24 11:55, Tanguy Fardet wrote:>>> I don't know how moderation works on sr.ht but this type of behavior>>> should earn at least a strike or a temporary block IMO.>>>> Punitive criminal justice has been shown time and time again to be>> inneffective.> > Banning people from a mailing list who refuse to participate in> good faith is defensive, not punitive.
It is a reaction to something that is restricting an ability that is, by
default, afforded to anyone who wants to take advantage of it. I can't
think of any way that that isn't punitive.
On Sun Jun 23, 2024 at 8:46 PM CEST, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> I can't think of any way that that isn't punitive.
Because you are focusing on the wrong side of it. You are looking at
the effect a ban has on the banned. Instead you should look at the
effect a ban has on the group that issued it.
Don't view banning as punishment. View it as curating a healthy
atmosphere by removing individuals who have shown to be incapable of
upholding that.
--
Friendly greetings,
Leon Henrik Plickat
On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:46 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> On 6/23/24 14:41, Zack Weinberg wrote:>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:32 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:>>> On 5/22/24 11:55, Tanguy Fardet wrote:>>>> I don't know how moderation works on sr.ht but this type of behavior>>>> should earn at least a strike or a temporary block IMO.>>>>>> Punitive criminal justice has been shown time and time again to be>>> inneffective.>> >> Banning people from a mailing list who refuse to participate in>> good faith is defensive, not punitive.>> It is a reaction to something that is restricting an ability that is, by > default, afforded to anyone who wants to take advantage of it. I can't > think of any way that that isn't punitive.
Are you punishing someone when you tell them face to face that you are
not interested in discussing something with them?
zw
On 6/23/24 14:56, Leon Henrik Plickat wrote:
> On Sun Jun 23, 2024 at 8:46 PM CEST, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:>> I can't think of any way that that isn't punitive.> > Because you are focusing on the wrong side of it. You are looking at> the effect a ban has on the banned. Instead you should look at the> effect a ban has on the group that issued it.
Why should i do that?
> Don't view banning as punishment. View it as curating a healthy> atmosphere by removing individuals who have shown to be incapable of> upholding that.
The needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few sounds great
until you end up being one of the few.
On 6/23/24 14:56, Zack Weinberg wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:46 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:>> On 6/23/24 14:41, Zack Weinberg wrote:>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:32 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:>>>> On 5/22/24 11:55, Tanguy Fardet wrote:>>>>> I don't know how moderation works on sr.ht but this type of behavior>>>>> should earn at least a strike or a temporary block IMO.>>>>>>>> Punitive criminal justice has been shown time and time again to be>>>> inneffective.>>>>>> Banning people from a mailing list who refuse to participate in>>> good faith is defensive, not punitive.>>>> It is a reaction to something that is restricting an ability that is, by>> default, afforded to anyone who wants to take advantage of it. I can't>> think of any way that that isn't punitive.> > Are you punishing someone when you tell them face to face that you are> not interested in discussing something with them?
I'll humor you and assume that this has something to do with the
conversation. My answer would be that it depends.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:59 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> On 6/23/24 14:56, Zack Weinberg wrote:>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:46 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:>>> On 6/23/24 14:41, Zack Weinberg wrote:>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, at 6:32 PM, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:>>>>> On 5/22/24 11:55, Tanguy Fardet wrote:>>>>>> I don't know how moderation works on sr.ht but this type of behavior>>>>>> should earn at least a strike or a temporary block IMO.>>>>>>>>>> Punitive criminal justice has been shown time and time again to be>>>>> inneffective.>>>>>>>> Banning people from a mailing list who refuse to participate in>>>> good faith is defensive, not punitive.>>>>>> It is a reaction to something that is restricting an ability that is, by>>> default, afforded to anyone who wants to take advantage of it. I can't>>> think of any way that that isn't punitive.>> >> Are you punishing someone when you tell them face to face that you are>> not interested in discussing something with them?>> I'll humor you and assume that this has something to do with the > conversation.
If it's not obvious to you what this has to do with this conversation
then I am not interested in discussing it with you any further, and
if you reply to this message then I will add you to my spam filter.
zw
This discussion is beyond the pale. Professionalism, kindness, and the
presumption of good faith are expected of all SourceHut users. One user
has already been banned for their participation in this thread, don't be
the next. Moderation decisions are not subject to public debate on this
mailing list.
This thread is closed. Anyone posting in this thread for any reason will
have their posting rights to sr.ht-discuss revoked. Take it off-list if
you must.