14 Oct 2024 10:17:30 alevix <cregox@ahoxus.org>:

> i find myself extremely disappointed to see that the sourcehut web 
> interface still suffers from the same issues!
>
> and i would love to see the sourcehut team prioritize a responsive 
> design and engage with the community in designing a better experience.
>
> how can i help?
>
> hf.co/chat/r/iTjHkVG?leafId=927c6dba-b36b-49a1-b34f-49716d95e4a7
>
>
> with love (= action) ❤️   a cauema     +48788487949        
> ahoxus.org/fupl#cregox

i find myself extremely disappointed to see that the sourcehut web 
interface still suffers from the same issues!

and i would love to see the sourcehut team prioritize a responsive design 
and engage with the community in designing a better experience.

how can i help?

hf.co/chat/r/iTjHkVG?leafId=927c6dba-b36b-49a1-b34f-49716d95e4a7

also, a huge ps...

when trying to send this message above using my very simple email client 
(edison) on android, i got the extra annoyance of the "we don't like your 
message, please read useplaintext.email pretty please" as you all for 
sure know. and i decided to try fairemail again, since i lost all memory 
of why i left it around 4y ago (i do recall i used it with srht). not 
sure yet if me and/or marcel (fairemail dev, who seemed to somehow enjoy 
me as a customer back then) will enjoy this turn of events, but i for 
sure still see the way srht team handles this as disappointing yet again. 
my first attempt had no html that i added. i feel it should ideally have 
accepted the text part of it, as a sign of "we understand this was not 
my/your fault or my/your first choice", and then moved on to teach me all 
about the otherwose interesting philosophy of why you won't accept it the 
next time. or at very least word the email "better". for instance, some 
way i feel i might even enjoy to get this annoyance:

as you can see, this text above remains all we manage to see from your 
email. and we refused to deliver it to the discussion because it
contains HTML somewhere (we really don't like html emails!) perhaps you 
will noticed all or some part of what you intended to send, missing

hopefully the following guide will
help you configure your client to send it in plain text instead, or even 
discover a new way to use emails:

http://useplaintext.email

and if i manage to get finally get my message trhough today, after many 
hours of fiddling with a new email client, believe me, it will not be 
thanks to the words in that automated email!

but i still hope i will eventually become thankful of it anyway, thanks 
to the link in it, and the intention of course.

-- 
with love (= action) ❤️   a cauema     +48788487949        
ahoxus.org/fupl#cregox

Дана 24/10/14 01:39PM, a cauema написа:
> also, a huge ps...
> 
> when trying to send this message above using my very simple email client
> (edison) on android, i got the extra annoyance of the "we don't like your
> message, please read useplaintext.email pretty please" as you all for sure
> know. and i decided to try fairemail again, since i lost all memory of why i
> left it around 4y ago (i do recall i used it with srht). not sure yet if me
> and/or marcel (fairemail dev, who seemed to somehow enjoy me as a customer
> back then) will enjoy this turn of events, but i for sure still see the way
> srht team handles this as disappointing yet again. my first attempt had no
> html that i added. i feel it should ideally have accepted the text part of
> it, as a sign of "we understand this was not my/your fault or my/your first
> choice", and then moved on to teach me all about the otherwose interesting
> philosophy of why you won't accept it the next time. or at very least word
> the email "better". for instance, some way i feel i might even enjoy to get
> this annoyance:

Better yet: don't use Android. Use Unix command line tools and TUI and 
CLI programs on a desktop computer, (which should be) the norm for Free 
software development.

Sourcehut's motto is "the hacker's forge". Its main selling point are
principles which are fundamentally opposed to what is unfortunately
software development "mainstream" today, as personified in Microsoft's
Github.

Neomutt setup with msmtp+Isync and a text editor like Vim work without
any issues on Sourcehut.

On Mon Oct 14, 2024 at 9:14 PM CEST, Страхиња Радић wrote:
> Better yet: don't use Android. Use Unix command line tools and TUI and 
> CLI programs on a desktop computer, (which should be) the norm for Free 
> software development.

You don’t have to go all the way towards mutt (or aerc I use),
there are always Thunderbird [1] and Evolution [2], which are reasonably
hackers-friendly and yet useable by “normals” as well.

And even for Android, K-9 (soon to be probably renamed to
Thunderbird for Android) works reasonably well too [3].

Of course, for sending patches you want to use git send-email,
but you really don’t have to suffer much.

Best,

Matěj

[1] https://useplaintext.email/#thunderbird
[2] https://useplaintext.email/#evolution
[3] https://useplaintext.email/#k-9
-- 
http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @mcepl@floss.social
GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5  BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
 
I am certain there is too much certainty in the world.
  -- Michael Crichton

On 15/10/2024 1.43 am, Matěj Cepl wrote:
> On Mon Oct 14, 2024 at 9:14 PM CEST, Страхиња Радић wrote:
>> Better yet: don't use Android. Use Unix command line tools and TUI and 
>> CLI programs on a desktop computer, (which should be) the norm for Free 
>> software development.
> 
> You don’t have to go all the way towards mutt (or aerc I use),
> there are always Thunderbird [1] and Evolution [2], which are reasonably
> hackers-friendly and yet useable by “normals” as well.
> 
> And even for Android, K-9 (soon to be probably renamed to
> Thunderbird for Android) works reasonably well too [3].
> 
> Of course, for sending patches you want to use git send-email,
> but you really don’t have to suffer much.

Sourcehut pages load very quickly on mobile connections. The site is
easy to access on light browsers that do not require javascript.
Perhaps point out pages that are difficult to use from your
phone/tablet, screenshots posted online somewhere would be useful.

You could get git send-email from Termux[1]. Install git and it should
be available.

Forgejo has a client GitNex[2], MGit[3] might also be helpful, but at
present no such app exists for SourceHut or Mercurial repositories.  It
does take time to develop such things, though maybe a cross-platform
application could lead to wider adoption of SourceHut - but expectations
of what such an app should do would be good.  If sending email is the
primary issue at this point, please try out suggestions that have been
given.

1) https://termux.dev/
2) https://gitnex.com/
3) https://github.com/maks/MGit

> 
> Best,
> 
> Matěj
> 
> [1] https://useplaintext.email/#thunderbird
> [2] https://useplaintext.email/#evolution
> [3] https://useplaintext.email/#k-9

On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 09:14:55PM +0200, Страхиња Радић wrote:
> Дана 24/10/14 01:39PM, a cauema написа:
> > also, a huge ps...
> > 
> > when trying to send this message above using my very simple email client
> > (edison) on android, i got the extra annoyance of the "we don't like your
> > message, please read useplaintext.email pretty please" as you all for sure
> > know.
[...]
> 
> Better yet: don't use Android. Use Unix command line tools and TUI and 
> CLI programs on a desktop computer, (which should be) the norm for Free 
> software development.
> 
> Sourcehut's motto is "the hacker's forge".

Maintainers running mailing lists on sr.ht have users. Users that are
not hackers. I, and certainly others too, want to have a pretty low bar
for my users to report problems or bugs. I don't think telling them to
not use Android is a valid option.

Дана 24/10/15 09:56AM, Rene Kita написа:
> Maintainers running mailing lists on sr.ht have users. Users that are
> not hackers. I, and certainly others too, want to have a pretty low bar
> for my users to report problems or bugs. I don't think telling them to
> not use Android is a valid option.

For an example of how it can (and should) be done, see how the OpenBSD 
project handles bug reports:

	https://www.openbsd.org/report.html


Дана 24/10/15 12:43AM, Matěj Cepl написа:
> You don’t have to go all the way towards mutt (or aerc I use),
> there are always Thunderbird [1] and Evolution [2], which are 
> reasonably hackers-friendly and yet useable by “normals” as well.
>
> And even for Android, K-9 (soon to be probably renamed to
> Thunderbird for Android) works reasonably well too [3].
>
> Of course, for sending patches you want to use git send-email,
> but you really don’t have to suffer much.

Our definitions of "suffering" obviously differ. For me, "suffering" is
waiting for huge bloated programs, like Thunderbird and Evolution to
start as opposed to almost instant startup of Neomutt; navigating
through GUI menus and dialogs as opposed to using shortcut keys (I am
aware GUI programs also have shortcut keys, but not at the same level
as TUI programs) or passing options on the command line; having Mozilla
remove options and ways to customize the behavior of its programs as
opposed to elaborate ways to configure and customize Neomutt; not being 
able, or not being able to efficiently, use a program remotely, as 
opposed to using CLI and TUI programs over SSH; and so on.

On Tue Oct 15, 2024 at 10:42 AM CEST, Страхиња Радић wrote:
> Our definitions of "suffering" obviously differ. For me, "suffering" is
> waiting for huge bloated programs, like Thunderbird and Evolution to

Of course, did I mention I maintain sway MicroOS distro and use
aerc? However, I am acutely aware I am not whole humanity, and
there are many people who just prefer things which work on their
own without more work.

Matěj

-- 
http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @mcepl@floss.social
GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5  BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
 
“Goodbye,” said the fox. “And now here is my secret, a very
simple secret: It is only with the heart that one can see
rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.”
   -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

On 2024-10-14 21:14, Страхиња Радић wrote:
> Дана 24/10/14 01:39PM, a cauema написа:
>> also, a huge ps...
>> 
>> when trying to send this message above using my very simple email client
>> (edison) on android, i got the extra annoyance of the "we don't like your
>> message, please read useplaintext.email pretty please" as you all for sure
>> know. and i decided to try fairemail again, since i lost all memory of why i
>> left it around 4y ago (i do recall i used it with srht). not sure yet if me
>> and/or marcel (fairemail dev, who seemed to somehow enjoy me as a customer
>> back then) will enjoy this turn of events, but i for sure still see the way
>> srht team handles this as disappointing yet again. my first attempt had no
>> html that i added. i feel it should ideally have accepted the text part of
>> it, as a sign of "we understand this was not my/your fault or my/your first
>> choice", and then moved on to teach me all about the otherwose interesting
>> philosophy of why you won't accept it the next time. or at very least word
>> the email "better". for instance, some way i feel i might even enjoy to get
>> this annoyance:
> 
> Better yet: don't use Android. Use Unix command line tools and TUI and 
> CLI programs on a desktop computer, (which should be) the norm for Free 
> software development.

The norm is Github.

> Sourcehut's motto is "the hacker's forge". Its main selling point are
> principles which are fundamentally opposed to what is unfortunately
> software development "mainstream" today, as personified in Microsoft's
> Github.
> 
> Neomutt setup with msmtp+Isync and a text editor like Vim work without
> any issues on Sourcehut.

And this is how you keep Github as the norm.

I am very sympathetic to using TUI tools and so on — I spend most of my time in the terminal.

But I did want to mention, as a general point, that excluding, on principle, people who use GUI clients because they do not have the technical ability to use/configure TUI software, or the time after work to learn to learn the necessary skills, is a form of harmfully dogmatic ableism.

Of course we should encourage people to use the tools we think are best. But we should also meet people where they are, and be understanding of the restrictions they face. There are multiple people I've interacted with who have started as enthusiastic Sourcehut users, only to be driven away entirely by people saying that, if they did not understand how to use X or Y tool, that's too bad and they should deal with it.

Here's an example. My email's lines are not wrapped at 72 columns, so my paragraphs will be one long line on the Sourcehut web UI. This is _our problem_, not the problem of users who don't use software that doesn't support (!) reflowing. In this particular case, putting the onus on users isn't a matter of superior software, it's just a matter of sticking to practices just because our in-group has done it that way for a long time.

I completely agree that Sourcehut should be about moving away from services governed by harmful corporations, to services governed and contributed to by communities. This aim is so important to me. But is using a TUI mail client necessary for that? No. We can either aim to be accommodating to those who have the same ultimate aims as us but perhaps different technical abilities, or we can choose tool fetishism as our hill to die on and only drive people away back to GitHub.

Дана 24/10/15 12:45PM, raingloom@riseup.net написа:
> The norm is Github.

For mainstream "developers", yes.


> And this is how you keep Github as the norm.

On the contrary, voicing and supporting a different opinion is the only
way to stand against anything. Choosing conformism instead of that is
the reason why Github is how it is right now, and why mainstream
software is how it is right now.

> On 15 Oct 2024, at 14:54, Vlad-Stefan Harbuz <vlad@vladh.net> wrote:
> 
> I am very sympathetic to using TUI tools and so on — I spend most of my time in the terminal.
> 
> But I did want to mention, as a general point, that excluding, on principle, people who use GUI clients because they do not have the technical ability to use/configure TUI software, or the time after work to learn to learn the necessary skills, is a form of harmfully dogmatic ableism.

I’d just like to point out that I write mails using Apple’s Mail app, and as far as I know my messages are fine (aside from reflow I think)

It’s a behaviour thing more than a software thing

On 2024-10-15 17:06, Страхиња Радић wrote:
> Дана 24/10/15 12:45PM, raingloom@riseup.net написа:
>> The norm is Github.
> 
> For mainstream "developers", yes.
>
>> And this is how you keep Github as the norm.
> 
> On the contrary, voicing and supporting a different opinion is the only
> way to stand against anything. Choosing conformism instead of that is
> the reason why Github is how it is right now, and why mainstream
> software is how it is right now.

I'll just leave this here, since it summarizes my stance far better than
I could:
https://protesilaos.com/codelog/2024-04-30-re-emacs-github-freedom-microsoft/

Дана 24/10/15 03:22PM, raingloom@riseup.net написа:
> I'll just leave this here, since it summarizes my stance far better 
> than I could:
> https://protesilaos.com/codelog/2024-04-30-re-emacs-github-freedom-microsoft/

I know of that article.


> my contributions will not reach as many people, potentially 
> liberating them in some way, and, above all, it will not be part of a 
> concerted plan for political reform

The assumption is that the only way to reach people who should be
reached is through using a code hosting platform, specifically Github.
That is a false assumption. Word will get out in one way or another, 
but the point is lost if there are compromises in the process.

Kind of related: adapting the goals and the bending the integrity of
the author over the concern about how many people will be reached, and
what will be their opinion, is what is wrong with the entertainment
industry today. A similar pattern plagues software development.

Vlad-Stefan,

> But I did want to mention, as a general point, that excluding, on
> principle, people who use GUI clients because they do not have the
> technical ability to use/configure TUI software, or the time after
> work to learn to learn the necessary skills, is a form of harmfully
> dogmatic ableism.
>
> Of course we should encourage people to use the tools we think are
> best. But we should also meet people where they are, and be
> understanding of the restrictions they face.

this reminds me of Jon Postel's maxim for interoperability: be liberal
in what you accept and conservative in what you send.

(fwiw.)

cheers, Greg